I have to stop here but i look forward to reading more of your "points".Galefail said:I thought I would offer my 2 (or 3) cents on the matters at hand.
1: I would like to reply to the above post, made by The Fallen One: Plox, while not played by many (and by many, I mean "no one") will be played by me. As a Plox player I can assure you that it is a Tier 1-2 deck, although many people overlook it because they have not recognized its true potential. what true potential? Its been played with by nearly everybody that has played since last year or beyond and everybody knows how to run it and what techs can fight into it. You won't surprise anybody with any plox varient, and it will not be tier 1. What they are overlooking is the extreme disruption it is capable of doing, Disruption? Like power/hand lock? Theres plenty of other, faster, more damage dealing/higher hp decks that do it and are not recognized. along with its pure power with Gallade. 3 energy for what kingdra does for 1? To do 140 only once and to use him as your main attacker is NOT a strong source of power. This combined with the correct energy accelerator (such as Magnezone \o/) Yeah, gotta love running 5 energy and taking damage on a 110 hp stage 2 can help recreate this once beast of a deck. tried by many people, tossed by many people. When LA came out, it slipped into the shadows, its royal power merely hibernating until the right person realized that the deck was viable. States is going to be the tournament for some of us to prove that the deck is worth it. Good luck to you then.
GG, however, is a different story. I believe that Plox and GG are extremely different decks. lol no they are not One focuses on shear Psychic Locking (Plox) and can wait a few turns to setup. The other one relies on a very quick Gallade to sweep through your opponent (GG). That was never how either one was played. GG used gardy as a late game locker when the opponet had lost most of thier main attackers/resources while plox locked early and prevented the opponet from using claydol and getting thier main hitters up. While somewhat different, this myth that one used X and other used Y needs to end. Now, in this day and age, you have to realize that fast isn't always good. What? If your down by 2-3 prizes every game, you are not going to win a tourny like states. Yes, some decks like torterra are good at making a comeback, but even torterra doesn't win alot of games when its down mulitple prizes early game, espically facing something like regigias or even rampardos which can go toe to toe with you and still win, even if you out-power and play them.Sometimes it's okay to wait a little bit to charge up a Pokemon (if you play the correct Plox list, it only takes 1-2 turns. It does for me anyway) and that's fine. Sorry but if you have to take 1-2 turns to power up 1 pokemon it needs to do something other then 3 shot a pokemon and stop me from using my claydol. Sorry but most decks already have answers to claydol, even KOing it, so PLOX isn't a great attack, espically to focus on. Most decks, including even Kingdra I dare-say, take longer to charge-up nowadays anyway. Take longer than 2 turns? You're kidding, right? I don't think any deck takes that long to power up, and those that take 3 turns to power up hit for OHKOs every turn and don't care about power locking. Your version cares about...both...badly. The key to the current format is energy acceleration. I have said this many times over and I am not afraid to reinforce my argument. Your energy acceleration is in some form, and whether you know it or not, that is most likely one of the key staples of your deck. It might be Bronzong, it might be Weavile, it might be Delcatty or Blissey or whatever. The important thing is that it's in there. 98+% of the current decks out there have energy acceleration in one form or another. So, yeah. That's my first point lol. The ONLY one that I noted that is an energy accel is weavile. Bronzong does't accel energy attachments, delcatty is not played due to its hp and its forced attacking, and blissey needs stark mountain/energy link/energy switch, so its not ran. You missed typhlosion, rayquaza, regirock (meh), leafeon, blastiose, blaziken ge, electrode, magnezone and a few others that will see alot more play than what you listed.
Point 2: Rampardos. I'm actually going to dedicate a fair amount of space for this one raging guy. I do not, nor have I ever, liked donk decks. I think they're an unfair way to win take that up with PUI then and say they are not making fair cards and personally I think that they take a little amount of skill to play They may take little skill to play, but they take ALOT of skill to win with (much more than gallading everything). Outside of the rare t1 win, "donk" decks (I prefer cheap attacking decks) take alot of precious moves and you must choose your attacks wisely. (however, they do take a fair amount of skill to build). With Rampardos... I feel differently for some reason. I think it's a bit harder to execute Rampardos' certain strategy than it is for other donk decks such as Mario, but the end result is the same. If you're playing against a donk deck and you are not using a donk deck, there is a very high % chance that you will get donked. I disagree 200%. Donk decks run LESS basics so you will be donked MORE with a donk deck than with a non-donk deck. Also if you are not playing a donk deck, you should be ready to face the rush decks out there and tech for them. Now, if you are donked, that does not necessarily mean endgame (unless that was your only Pokemon in play). It just means that it will be that much harder for you to setup, but it doesn't mean a total game loss. ummm, by definition, it does mean you lost the game. You can be donked in more ways than just getting t1ed. You can get donked by a deck you should auto-win. You can be donked by flipping 0 heads on 30 sleep checks. Heck, if the opponet pulls out that warp point off of a 1 card claydol with 1 warp left and 35+ cards, its a donk. It just means that they have slowed you down and you may or may not be able to speed back up. It happens. There have been, and always will be donk decks; there's no getting around that. You just have to learn to live with them, despite whatever amount of skill you think they take to play.
Point 3: The Metagame in General. People are so afraid of the metagame. They want to find room for techs in their decks and such. I have news for you guys - Techs will make your deck more inconsistent and the end result will be you wishing you hadn't played them. I haven't found any of my decks to be inconsistant because of my techs (just my weird trainer lines). Techs don't kill decks; trainers do. I'm not saying that it has ALWAYS been like this (such as back at the 2008 worlds when techs were almost necessary), and I'm not saying that EVERY deck shouldn't play techs (like Kingdra with Dialga G Lv.X). What I AM saying though is that techs will most likely slow down your deck, and chances are, you won't even see the deck you're teching against at your State Championships, If you're teching for rampardos or grass decks...I think you will. or you won't even get it out during the game, or (worst case scenario), you get it out and because you spent to much time trying to do so, they one-shot it! Techs just aren't worth it in my opinion. Not anymore, nope.
Getting back to my previous point, the metagame is too hazy for us to understand what it will be at States. This is in my opinion, but the majority of decks will be Giratina variants, Kingdra, Palkia/G Pokemon, Rampardos, (some) Torterra, (some) Delcatty variants, (some) Regigigas, (very few) GG/Plox, (very few) Rogues, and probably other decks that I forgot to list maybe like AMU or Dusknoir etc. But, seriously, don't try to tech against decks unless you have already been to a previous State Championships this season and you have seen the metagame. I.E you have been to [blank] State Championships and lost there. If you assume the metagame will be the same at [blank]'s State Championships, then try to fit a tech in there for the deck that caused you the most trouble. It might or might not help, but if you can fit it in and there are vast numbers of the deck you are teching against, then it will most likely help.
There are other points I wanted to mention, but I'll stop here
Official States Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Amt
- Start date
Let's consider a few scenarios.
If you're playing a basic Lv.X tech, then you need to fit in at least 3 cards. 1-1 of the tech, and at least 1 level max.
If you're playing a Stage 1 Lv.X tech, then you need to fit in at least 4 cards.
If you're playing a Stage 2 Lv.X tech, etc etc etc.
So, you need to then rely on
A: Getting a heads on Lv. Max
B: Bringing the tech in after a knockout then putting it back on the bench or charging it up or whatever
Or something else. If you're NOT playing a Lv.X tech, then you still have to rely on several other factors, such as getting the tech out, charging it/using it properly, etc. I mean, I'd prefer maybe some more draw over a 1-1 Dialga G Lv.X personally if I know the metagame won't involve a lot of Sceptile or Shaymin or whatever.
@Foxtrot - lemme read your post and I'll edit this one with my rebuttal.
Thanks
If you're playing a basic Lv.X tech, then you need to fit in at least 3 cards. 1-1 of the tech, and at least 1 level max.
If you're playing a Stage 1 Lv.X tech, then you need to fit in at least 4 cards.
If you're playing a Stage 2 Lv.X tech, etc etc etc.
So, you need to then rely on
A: Getting a heads on Lv. Max
B: Bringing the tech in after a knockout then putting it back on the bench or charging it up or whatever
Or something else. If you're NOT playing a Lv.X tech, then you still have to rely on several other factors, such as getting the tech out, charging it/using it properly, etc. I mean, I'd prefer maybe some more draw over a 1-1 Dialga G Lv.X personally if I know the metagame won't involve a lot of Sceptile or Shaymin or whatever.
@Foxtrot - lemme read your post and I'll edit this one with my rebuttal.
Foxtrot said:I have to stop here but I look forward to reading more of your "points".Galefail said:I thought I would offer my 2 (or 3) cents on the matters at hand.
1: I would like to reply to the above post, made by The Fallen One: Plox, while not played by many (and by many, I mean "no one") will be played by me. As a Plox player I can assure you that it is a Tier 1-2 deck, although many people overlook it because they have not recognized its true potential. what true potential? Its been played with by nearly everybody that has played since last year or beyond and everybody knows how to run it and what techs can fight into it. You won't surprise anybody with any plox varient, and it will not be tier 1. It's circumstantial. It might be tier 1-2 in certain areas, and not even crack a tier in others. And what I mean by "true potential" is that people don't recognize what power it has and how well it can do at tournaments. I mean, I'm only saying this in my opinion, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion
GG, however, is a different story. I believe that Plox and GG are extremely different decks. lol no they are not One focuses on shear Psychic Locking (Plox) and can wait a few turns to setup. The other one relies on a very quick Gallade to sweep through your opponent (GG). That was never how either one was played. GG used gardy as a late game locker when the opponet had lost most of thier main attackers/resources while plox locked early and prevented the opponet from using claydol and getting thier main hitters up. While somewhat different, this myth that one used X and other used Y needs to end. With my experiences with GG, it focused on getting an early Gallade, slapping a DRE on it, maybe sacrifice something for the use of a Scramble. Plox focused on preventing powers and locking them completely. Just from my experiences. You may have had different ones Now, in this day and age, you have to realize that fast isn't always good. What? If your down by 2-3 prizes every game, you are not going to win a tourny like states. Yes, some decks like torterra are good at making a comeback, but even torterra doesn't win alot of games when its down mulitple prizes early game, espically facing something like regigias or even rampardos which can go toe to toe with you and still win, even if you out-power and play them.Some decks are meant to do toe to toe with other decks. Sometimes it just happens. Once again, like many things in this game, it's circumstantial. Sometimes it's okay to wait a little bit to charge up a Pokemon (if you play the correct Plox list, it only takes 1-2 turns. It does for me anyway) and that's fine. Sorry but if you have to take 1-2 turns to power up 1 pokemon it needs to do something other then 3 shot a pokemon and stop me from using my claydol. Sorry but most decks already have answers to claydol, even KOing it, so PLOX isn't a great attack, espically to focus on. The 3 shotting a Pokemon doesn't necessarily matter, it's the stopping of the powers. Psychic Lock stops Psychic Bond, Sacrifice, and lots of used powers. Most decks, including even Kingdra I dare-say, take longer to charge-up nowadays anyway. Take longer than 2 turns? You're kidding, right? I don't think any deck takes that long to power up, and those that take 3 turns to power up hit for OHKOs every turn and don't care about power locking. Your version cares about...both...badly.I mean, yeah, Kingdra usually takes 1-2 turns to power up and take 2-3 prizes. I'm not saying that Plox is always going to beat Kingdra, but it has a chance like any other deck The key to the current format is energy acceleration. I have said this many times over and I am not afraid to reinforce my argument. Your energy acceleration is in some form, and whether you know it or not, that is most likely one of the key staples of your deck. It might be Bronzong, it might be Weavile, it might be Delcatty or Blissey or whatever. The important thing is that it's in there. 98+% of the current decks out there have energy acceleration in one form or another. So, yeah. That's my first point lol. The ONLY one that I noted that is an energy accel is weavile. Bronzong does't accel energy attachments, delcatty is not played due to its hp and its forced attacking, and blissey needs stark mountain/energy link/energy switch, so its not ran. You missed typhlosion, rayquaza, regirock (meh), leafeon, blastiose, blaziken ge, electrode, magnezone and a few others that will see alot more play than what you listed.By energy acceleration, I apologize for not being clear, I meant anything that helps with moving energy or attaching it. Anything that has to do with energy and playing it in any way possible. And I'm not going to say ALL the possible energy accelerators, just the ones off the top of my head.
Point 2: Rampardos. I'm actually going to dedicate a fair amount of space for this one raging guy. I do not, nor have I ever, liked donk decks. I think they're an unfair way to win take that up with PUI then and say they are not making fair cardslol and personally I think that they take a little amount of skill to play They may take little skill to play, but they take ALOT of skill to win with (much more than gallading everything). Outside of the rare t1 win, "donk" decks (I prefer cheap attacking decks) take alot of precious moves and you must choose your attacks wisely. I see your point, but wouldn't you prefer to play a deck that takes skill over a deck that takes a few turns to win? (however, they do take a fair amount of skill to build). With Rampardos... I feel differently for some reason. I think it's a bit harder to execute Rampardos' certain strategy than it is for other donk decks such as Mario, but the end result is the same. If you're playing against a donk deck and you are not using a donk deck, there is a very high % chance that you will get donked. I disagree 200%. Donk decks run LESS basics so you will be donked MORE with a donk deck than with a non-donk deck. Also if you are not playing a donk deck, you should be ready to face the rush decks out there and tech for them. Even if you're ready, there is no sure counter to being donked. Simple as that. If you're playing a regular deck with say 12 basics and you're playing against a deck that can win against you in 1-2 turns with 4 basics, I'd say the latter deck has a better chance of winning than the 1st one. Now, if you are donked, that does not necessarily mean endgame (unless that was your only Pokemon in play). It just means that it will be that much harder for you to setup, but it doesn't mean a total game loss. ummm, by definition, it does mean you lost the game. You can be donked in more ways than just getting t1ed. You can get donked by a deck you should auto-win. You can be donked by flipping 0 heads on 30 sleep checks. Heck, if the opponet pulls out that warp point off of a 1 card claydol with 1 warp left and 35+ cards, its a donk.I don't see how that's an auto-lose. If (let's go back in time) a Riolu is facing a Holon's Castform, and the Holon's Castform player has a Trapinch Delta on the bench, and the Riolu OHKO's the Castform, that's not an autoloss. Unless I misunderstood what you just typed It just means that they have slowed you down and you may or may not be able to speed back up. It happens. There have been, and always will be donk decks; there's no getting around that. You just have to learn to live with them, despite whatever amount of skill you think they take to play.
Point 3: The Metagame in General. People are so afraid of the metagame. They want to find room for techs in their decks and such. I have news for you guys - Techs will make your deck more inconsistent and the end result will be you wishing you hadn't played them. I haven't found any of my decks to be inconsistant because of my techs (just my weird trainer lines). Techs don't kill decks; trainers do.Trainers, in the end, imo, speed up the deck if anything, I'd see a 1-1 or something line of Pokemon that you strive to get out being more of a burden than a few trainers I'm not saying that it has ALWAYS been like this (such as back at the 2008 worlds when techs were almost necessary), and I'm not saying that EVERY deck shouldn't play techs (like Kingdra with Dialga G Lv.X). What I AM saying though is that techs will most likely slow down your deck, and chances are, you won't even see the deck you're teching against at your State Championships, If you're teching for rampardos or grass decks...I think you will. I concur or you won't even get it out during the game, or (worst case scenario), you get it out and because you spent to much time trying to do so, they one-shot it! Techs just aren't worth it in my opinion. Not anymore, nope.
Getting back to my previous point, the metagame is too hazy for us to understand what it will be at States. This is in my opinion, but the majority of decks will be Giratina variants, Kingdra, Palkia/G Pokemon, Rampardos, (some) Torterra, (some) Delcatty variants, (some) Regigigas, (very few) GG/Plox, (very few) Rogues, and probably other decks that I forgot to list maybe like AMU or Dusknoir etc. But, seriously, don't try to tech against decks unless you have already been to a previous State Championships this season and you have seen the metagame. I.E you have been to [blank] State Championships and lost there. If you assume the metagame will be the same at [blank]'s State Championships, then try to fit a tech in there for the deck that caused you the most trouble. It might or might not help, but if you can fit it in and there are vast numbers of the deck you are teching against, then it will most likely help.
There are other points I wanted to mention, but I'll stop here
Thanks
Galefail said:
I'd like to comment on this. Mainly to all the peole who disagree with Galefail's statement. What I bolded sums up teching in this format. There are so many decks running around at the moment, that teching against something(unless its like 50% or more of your meta)is a big risk. Consistency gets you to top cut, then skill(and luck) win you the tournament. All techs do is hurt your chance, though like Galefail said some decks need certain techs. This is coming from a guy that loves techs. Look at my various cities decks, there all tech out. They were also the most inconsistent decks ever and half the time my techs were just dead draw. Skill and knowledge of match-ups >> Techs in this format. I lol at people who tech their decks for match-ups, when all they have to do is play it a little differently. Just a little something I learned from my cities.
1: I would like to reply to the above post, made by The Fallen One: Plox, while not played by many (and by many, I mean "no one") will be played by me. As a Plox player I can assure you that it is a Tier 1-2 deck, although many people overlook it because they have not recognized its true potential. what true potential? Its been played with by nearly everybody that has played since last year or beyond and everybody knows how to run it and what techs can fight into it. You won't surprise anybody with any plox varient, and it will not be tier 1. It's circumstantial. It might be tier 1-2 in certain areas, and not even crack a tier in others. And what I mean by "true potential" is that people don't recognize what power it has and how well it can do at tournaments. I mean, I'm only saying this in my opinion, and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion That’s fine to have your own opinion, but when it comes to how well a deck is, there’s really very little wiggle room for opinions. Usually its straight facts, and the fact is plox is not a fast deck and doesn’t offer much more than a lot of other decks out there.
What they are overlooking is the extreme disruption it is capable of doing, Disruption? Like power/hand lock? Theres plenty of other, faster, more damage dealing/higher hp decks that do it and are not recognized.[/u]Er, examples plx?[/u] G decks, gigias, kingdra with zam (anything with zam really), girantina varients, and basically anything that takes care of claydol (which is basically 1/3rd of the metagame easily).
along with its pure power with Gallade. 3 energy for what kingdra does for 1? To do 140 only once and to use him as your main attacker is NOT a strong source of power.You're also getting disruption with Gardy Yes but they both take 3 energy to do what kingdra can do with 1 and zam.
This combined with the correct energy accelerator (such as Magnezone \o/) Yeah, gotta love running 5 energy and taking damage on a 110 hp stage 2Are you referring to Magnezone here or Gardy or, hm... help me out I can't seem to understand this part *5 different types of energy (call, lighting, fighting, psychic, and tech metal)* I’m referring to magnezoning onto a gardy.
can help recreate this once beast of a deck. tried by many people, tossed by many people.This is true, and Plox is definitely a controversal When LA came out, it slipped into the shadows, its royal power merely hibernating until the right person realized that the deck was viable. States is going to be the tournament for some of us to prove that the deck is worth it. Good luck to you then.Thank you sir
GG, however, is a different story. I believe that Plox and GG are extremely different decks. lol no they are not One focuses on shear Psychic Locking (Plox) and can wait a few turns to setup. The other one relies on a very quick Gallade to sweep through your opponent (GG). That was never how either one was played. GG used gardy as a late game locker when the opponet had lost most of thier main attackers/resources while plox locked early and prevented the opponet from using claydol and getting thier main hitters up. While somewhat different, this myth that one used X and other used Y needs to end. With my experiences with GG, it focused on getting an early Gallade, slapping a DRE on it, maybe sacrifice something for the use of a Scramble. Plox focused on preventing powers and locking them completely. Just from my experiences. You may have had different ones Both decks used gallade and gardy for most of their matches (some matches required only one). Plox ran 2 gallades for a reason...to use them. Heck, many ploxs ran 3 of both gardy and gallade because getting a t2 of either one last year was incredibly broken.
Now, in this day and age, you have to realize that fast isn't always good. What? If your down by 2-3 prizes every game, you are not going to win a tourny like states. Yes, some decks like torterra are good at making a comeback, but even torterra doesn't win alot of games when its down mulitple prizes early game, espically facing something like regigias or even rampardos which can go toe to toe with you and still win, even if you out-power and play them.Some decks are meant to do toe to toe with other decks. Sometimes it just happens. Once again, like many things in this game, it's circumstantial. If Plox is meant to go toe to toe with other decks, it can’t afford to run average attackers with slow attacks and be down prizes early in the game. It just doesn’t work like that.
Sometimes it's okay to wait a little bit to charge up a Pokemon (if you play the correct Plox list, it only takes 1-2 turns. It does for me anyway) and that's fine. Sorry but if you have to take 1-2 turns to power up 1 pokemon it needs to do something other then 3 shot a pokemon and stop me from using my claydol. Sorry but most decks already have answers to claydol, even KOing it, so PLOX isn't a great attack, espically to focus on. The 3 shotting a Pokemon doesn't necessarily matter, it's the stopping of the powers. Psychic Lock stops Psychic Bond, Sacrifice, and lots of used powers. Yes it does, which is why we’re evening having this discussion (plox would be terrible if it wasn’t for the power lock)
Most decks, including even Kingdra I dare-say, take longer to charge-up nowadays anyway. Take longer than 2 turns? You're kidding, right? I don't think any deck takes that long to power up, and those that take 3 turns to power up hit for OHKOs every turn and don't care about power locking. Your version cares about...both...badly.I mean, yeah, Kingdra usually takes 1-2 turns to power up and take 2-3 prizes. I'm not saying that Plox is always going to beat Kingdra, but it has a chance like any other deck
The key to the current format is energy acceleration. I have said this many times over and I am not afraid to reinforce my argument. Your energy acceleration is in some form, and whether you know it or not, that is most likely one of the key staples of your deck. It might be Bronzong, it might be Weavile, it might be Delcatty or Blissey or whatever. The important thing is that it's in there. 98+% of the current decks out there have energy acceleration in one form or another. So, yeah. That's my first point lol. The ONLY one that I noted that is an energy accel is weavile. Bronzong does't accel energy attachments, delcatty is not played due to its hp and its forced attacking, and blissey needs stark mountain/energy link/energy switch, so its not ran. You missed typhlosion, rayquaza, regirock (meh), leafeon, blastiose, blaziken ge, electrode, magnezone and a few others that will see alot more play than what you listed.By energy acceleration, I apologize for not being clear, I meant anything that helps with moving energy or attaching it. Anything that has to do with energy and playing it in any way possible. And I'm not going to say ALL the possible energy accelerators, just the ones off the top of my head.
Point 2: Rampardos. I'm actually going to dedicate a fair amount of space for this one raging guy. I do not, nor have I ever, liked donk decks. I think they're an unfair way to win take that up with PUI then and say they are not making fair cardslol and personally I think that they take a little amount of skill to play They may take little skill to play, but they take ALOT of skill to win with (much more than gallading everything). Outside of the rare t1 win, "donk" decks (I prefer cheap attacking decks) take alot of precious moves and you must choose your attacks wisely. I see your point, but wouldn't you prefer to play a deck that takes skill over a deck that takes a few turns to win? Absolutely, though even decks like Plox can donk sometimes. But the point here is that donk decks like kingdra and rampardos take a lot of skills to take to the finish line, not just win a round or two by sheer luck.
(however, they do take a fair amount of skill to build). With Rampardos... I feel differently for some reason. I think it's a bit harder to execute Rampardos' certain strategy than it is for other donk decks such as Mario, but the end result is the same. If you're playing against a donk deck and you are not using a donk deck, there is a very high % chance that you will get donked. I disagree 200%. Donk decks run LESS basics so you will be donked MORE with a donk deck than with a non-donk deck. Also if you are not playing a donk deck, you should be ready to face the rush decks out there and tech for them. Even if you're ready, there is no sure counter to being donked. Simple as that. If you're playing a regular deck with say 12 basics and you're playing against a deck that can win against you in 1-2 turns with 4 basics, I'd say the latter deck has a better chance of winning than the 1st one. If you go in general, then yes, I guess taking a bunch of early prizes would spell win. However, as it’s pretty clear, kingdra is consistant but did not win a lot of tournies (>30%).
Now, if you are donked, that does not necessarily mean endgame (unless that was your only Pokemon in play). It just means that it will be that much harder for you to setup, but it doesn't mean a total game loss. ummm, by definition, it does mean you lost the game. You can be donked in more ways than just getting t1ed. You can get donked by a deck you should auto-win. You can be donked by flipping 0 heads on 30 sleep checks. Heck, if the opponet pulls out that warp point off of a 1 card claydol with 1 warp left and 35+ cards, its a donk.I don't see how that's an auto-lose. If (let's go back in time) a Riolu is facing a Holon's Castform, and the Holon's Castform player has a Trapinch Delta on the bench, and the Riolu OHKO's the Castform, that's not an autoloss. Unless I misunderstood what you just typed I meant that if you are facing a deck you should normally crush (e.g. empoleon vs. infernape from the same year) and lose because of random things (not misplays but topdecking and just a horrific start), then it’s a donk.
It just means that they have slowed you down and you may or may not be able to speed back up. It happens. There have been, and always will be donk decks; there's no getting around that. You just have to learn to live with them, despite whatever amount of skill you think they take to play.
Point 3: The Metagame in General. People are so afraid of the metagame. They want to find room for techs in their decks and such. I have news for you guys - Techs will make your deck more inconsistent and the end result will be you wishing you hadn't played them. I haven't found any of my decks to be inconsistant because of my techs (just my weird trainer lines). Techs don't kill decks; trainers do.Trainers, in the end, imo, speed up the deck if anything, I'd see a 1-1 or something line of Pokemon that you strive to get out being more of a burden than a few trainers What I meant was that a poor trainer engine will kill a decks conistancy, not adding more pokemon.
I'm not saying that it has ALWAYS been like this (such as back at the 2008 worlds when techs were almost necessary), and I'm not saying that EVERY deck shouldn't play techs (like Kingdra with Dialga G Lv.X). What I AM saying though is that techs will most likely slow down your deck, and chances are, you won't even see the deck you're teching against at your State Championships, If you're teching for rampardos or grass decks...I think you will. I concur or you won't even get it out during the game, or (worst case scenario), you get it out and because you spent to much time trying to do so, they one-shot it! Techs just aren't worth it in my opinion. Not anymore, nope.
Getting back to my previous point, the metagame is too hazy for us to understand what it will be at States. This is in my opinion, but the majority of decks will be Giratina variants, Kingdra, Palkia/G Pokemon, Rampardos, (some) Torterra, (some) Delcatty variants, (some) Regigigas, (very few) GG/Plox, (very few) Rogues, and probably other decks that I forgot to list maybe like AMU or Dusknoir etc. But, seriously, don't try to tech against decks unless you have already been to a previous State Championships this season and you have seen the metagame. I.E you have been to [blank] State Championships and lost there. If you assume the metagame will be the same at [blank]'s State Championships, then try to fit a tech in there for the deck that caused you the most trouble. It might or might not help, but if you can fit it in and there are vast numbers of the deck you are teching against, then it will most likely help.
btw we need to get some sort of system...
What they are overlooking is the extreme disruption it is capable of doing, Disruption? Like power/hand lock? Theres plenty of other, faster, more damage dealing/higher hp decks that do it and are not recognized.[/u]Er, examples plx?[/u] G decks, gigias, kingdra with zam (anything with zam really), girantina varients, and basically anything that takes care of claydol (which is basically 1/3rd of the metagame easily).
along with its pure power with Gallade. 3 energy for what kingdra does for 1? To do 140 only once and to use him as your main attacker is NOT a strong source of power.You're also getting disruption with Gardy Yes but they both take 3 energy to do what kingdra can do with 1 and zam.
This combined with the correct energy accelerator (such as Magnezone \o/) Yeah, gotta love running 5 energy and taking damage on a 110 hp stage 2Are you referring to Magnezone here or Gardy or, hm... help me out I can't seem to understand this part *5 different types of energy (call, lighting, fighting, psychic, and tech metal)* I’m referring to magnezoning onto a gardy.
can help recreate this once beast of a deck. tried by many people, tossed by many people.This is true, and Plox is definitely a controversal When LA came out, it slipped into the shadows, its royal power merely hibernating until the right person realized that the deck was viable. States is going to be the tournament for some of us to prove that the deck is worth it. Good luck to you then.Thank you sir
GG, however, is a different story. I believe that Plox and GG are extremely different decks. lol no they are not One focuses on shear Psychic Locking (Plox) and can wait a few turns to setup. The other one relies on a very quick Gallade to sweep through your opponent (GG). That was never how either one was played. GG used gardy as a late game locker when the opponet had lost most of thier main attackers/resources while plox locked early and prevented the opponet from using claydol and getting thier main hitters up. While somewhat different, this myth that one used X and other used Y needs to end. With my experiences with GG, it focused on getting an early Gallade, slapping a DRE on it, maybe sacrifice something for the use of a Scramble. Plox focused on preventing powers and locking them completely. Just from my experiences. You may have had different ones Both decks used gallade and gardy for most of their matches (some matches required only one). Plox ran 2 gallades for a reason...to use them. Heck, many ploxs ran 3 of both gardy and gallade because getting a t2 of either one last year was incredibly broken.
Now, in this day and age, you have to realize that fast isn't always good. What? If your down by 2-3 prizes every game, you are not going to win a tourny like states. Yes, some decks like torterra are good at making a comeback, but even torterra doesn't win alot of games when its down mulitple prizes early game, espically facing something like regigias or even rampardos which can go toe to toe with you and still win, even if you out-power and play them.Some decks are meant to do toe to toe with other decks. Sometimes it just happens. Once again, like many things in this game, it's circumstantial. If Plox is meant to go toe to toe with other decks, it can’t afford to run average attackers with slow attacks and be down prizes early in the game. It just doesn’t work like that.
Sometimes it's okay to wait a little bit to charge up a Pokemon (if you play the correct Plox list, it only takes 1-2 turns. It does for me anyway) and that's fine. Sorry but if you have to take 1-2 turns to power up 1 pokemon it needs to do something other then 3 shot a pokemon and stop me from using my claydol. Sorry but most decks already have answers to claydol, even KOing it, so PLOX isn't a great attack, espically to focus on. The 3 shotting a Pokemon doesn't necessarily matter, it's the stopping of the powers. Psychic Lock stops Psychic Bond, Sacrifice, and lots of used powers. Yes it does, which is why we’re evening having this discussion (plox would be terrible if it wasn’t for the power lock)
Most decks, including even Kingdra I dare-say, take longer to charge-up nowadays anyway. Take longer than 2 turns? You're kidding, right? I don't think any deck takes that long to power up, and those that take 3 turns to power up hit for OHKOs every turn and don't care about power locking. Your version cares about...both...badly.I mean, yeah, Kingdra usually takes 1-2 turns to power up and take 2-3 prizes. I'm not saying that Plox is always going to beat Kingdra, but it has a chance like any other deck
The key to the current format is energy acceleration. I have said this many times over and I am not afraid to reinforce my argument. Your energy acceleration is in some form, and whether you know it or not, that is most likely one of the key staples of your deck. It might be Bronzong, it might be Weavile, it might be Delcatty or Blissey or whatever. The important thing is that it's in there. 98+% of the current decks out there have energy acceleration in one form or another. So, yeah. That's my first point lol. The ONLY one that I noted that is an energy accel is weavile. Bronzong does't accel energy attachments, delcatty is not played due to its hp and its forced attacking, and blissey needs stark mountain/energy link/energy switch, so its not ran. You missed typhlosion, rayquaza, regirock (meh), leafeon, blastiose, blaziken ge, electrode, magnezone and a few others that will see alot more play than what you listed.By energy acceleration, I apologize for not being clear, I meant anything that helps with moving energy or attaching it. Anything that has to do with energy and playing it in any way possible. And I'm not going to say ALL the possible energy accelerators, just the ones off the top of my head.
Point 2: Rampardos. I'm actually going to dedicate a fair amount of space for this one raging guy. I do not, nor have I ever, liked donk decks. I think they're an unfair way to win take that up with PUI then and say they are not making fair cardslol and personally I think that they take a little amount of skill to play They may take little skill to play, but they take ALOT of skill to win with (much more than gallading everything). Outside of the rare t1 win, "donk" decks (I prefer cheap attacking decks) take alot of precious moves and you must choose your attacks wisely. I see your point, but wouldn't you prefer to play a deck that takes skill over a deck that takes a few turns to win? Absolutely, though even decks like Plox can donk sometimes. But the point here is that donk decks like kingdra and rampardos take a lot of skills to take to the finish line, not just win a round or two by sheer luck.
(however, they do take a fair amount of skill to build). With Rampardos... I feel differently for some reason. I think it's a bit harder to execute Rampardos' certain strategy than it is for other donk decks such as Mario, but the end result is the same. If you're playing against a donk deck and you are not using a donk deck, there is a very high % chance that you will get donked. I disagree 200%. Donk decks run LESS basics so you will be donked MORE with a donk deck than with a non-donk deck. Also if you are not playing a donk deck, you should be ready to face the rush decks out there and tech for them. Even if you're ready, there is no sure counter to being donked. Simple as that. If you're playing a regular deck with say 12 basics and you're playing against a deck that can win against you in 1-2 turns with 4 basics, I'd say the latter deck has a better chance of winning than the 1st one. If you go in general, then yes, I guess taking a bunch of early prizes would spell win. However, as it’s pretty clear, kingdra is consistant but did not win a lot of tournies (>30%).
Now, if you are donked, that does not necessarily mean endgame (unless that was your only Pokemon in play). It just means that it will be that much harder for you to setup, but it doesn't mean a total game loss. ummm, by definition, it does mean you lost the game. You can be donked in more ways than just getting t1ed. You can get donked by a deck you should auto-win. You can be donked by flipping 0 heads on 30 sleep checks. Heck, if the opponet pulls out that warp point off of a 1 card claydol with 1 warp left and 35+ cards, its a donk.I don't see how that's an auto-lose. If (let's go back in time) a Riolu is facing a Holon's Castform, and the Holon's Castform player has a Trapinch Delta on the bench, and the Riolu OHKO's the Castform, that's not an autoloss. Unless I misunderstood what you just typed I meant that if you are facing a deck you should normally crush (e.g. empoleon vs. infernape from the same year) and lose because of random things (not misplays but topdecking and just a horrific start), then it’s a donk.
It just means that they have slowed you down and you may or may not be able to speed back up. It happens. There have been, and always will be donk decks; there's no getting around that. You just have to learn to live with them, despite whatever amount of skill you think they take to play.
Point 3: The Metagame in General. People are so afraid of the metagame. They want to find room for techs in their decks and such. I have news for you guys - Techs will make your deck more inconsistent and the end result will be you wishing you hadn't played them. I haven't found any of my decks to be inconsistant because of my techs (just my weird trainer lines). Techs don't kill decks; trainers do.Trainers, in the end, imo, speed up the deck if anything, I'd see a 1-1 or something line of Pokemon that you strive to get out being more of a burden than a few trainers What I meant was that a poor trainer engine will kill a decks conistancy, not adding more pokemon.
I'm not saying that it has ALWAYS been like this (such as back at the 2008 worlds when techs were almost necessary), and I'm not saying that EVERY deck shouldn't play techs (like Kingdra with Dialga G Lv.X). What I AM saying though is that techs will most likely slow down your deck, and chances are, you won't even see the deck you're teching against at your State Championships, If you're teching for rampardos or grass decks...I think you will. I concur or you won't even get it out during the game, or (worst case scenario), you get it out and because you spent to much time trying to do so, they one-shot it! Techs just aren't worth it in my opinion. Not anymore, nope.
Getting back to my previous point, the metagame is too hazy for us to understand what it will be at States. This is in my opinion, but the majority of decks will be Giratina variants, Kingdra, Palkia/G Pokemon, Rampardos, (some) Torterra, (some) Delcatty variants, (some) Regigigas, (very few) GG/Plox, (very few) Rogues, and probably other decks that I forgot to list maybe like AMU or Dusknoir etc. But, seriously, don't try to tech against decks unless you have already been to a previous State Championships this season and you have seen the metagame. I.E you have been to [blank] State Championships and lost there. If you assume the metagame will be the same at [blank]'s State Championships, then try to fit a tech in there for the deck that caused you the most trouble. It might or might not help, but if you can fit it in and there are vast numbers of the deck you are teching against, then it will most likely help.
btw we need to get some sort of system...
what do you guys think that the ore/cali/wash stats are going to be playing??
-CC
-CC
G@G is going to be a hard deck to play along with PLOX. I can't see these decks being Teir 1 decks... but they are deffinatly good. I personally think the problem with them is that you need to play so many lines with all of them, mostly for PLOX. There is deffinatly dissuption in these decks, however, if you really want dissuption, just play Gengar. At least he can stall decently against Rampardos and other speed decks.
Also, about the donk deck statement about them being easy to use, I will agree and dissagree with that right there. First off, making a good list takes a lot of work, I would know. Secondly, how you use the deck and how you attack and plan in a match really is what wins games for the most part, which is hard work as well, and Rampardos and other speed decks IMO specialize in.
Also, about the donk deck statement about them being easy to use, I will agree and dissagree with that right there. First off, making a good list takes a lot of work, I would know. Secondly, how you use the deck and how you attack and plan in a match really is what wins games for the most part, which is hard work as well, and Rampardos and other speed decks IMO specialize in.
Fax said:
LOL, wut? You're saying that Rampardos is actually hard to build and play? Hehehehe. Compared to other donk decks, maybe. Against all other types of decks? Not a freaking chance.
Donk decks make me very sad. Even know i have been playing them, and have not donked anybody in a real tournament. It just is such a cheap way to win, and people look down at you if you make your deck to win T2,and you actually win with it. wow. People also start to dislike you because the fact that we are not going to play past T1. Donk decks take skill to play you guys make me lol. Anybody can play 4 Pokedex and 4 Pokedrawer. Learn to get a rare candy and whatever else you need. Now if you play donk cards but play for constiency and not going all out for the turn 1 then I like you.
Well it is out fault that Rampardos is a usable card? is it our fault that it can do 80 for 1 {F}? is it out fault that a deck revolves around it? (well actually yes) We're just playing the cards that we have been given so don't complain about those who use it, complain about those who made it. Stop giving the player a hard time just because they play Rampardos and you don't we all have our different methods of playing. All this random hate comes from people who fear Rampardos, that they wish for people to stop playing it so they have an easier time winning states. LOL you think states will be that easy. If you hate the Rampardos so much, then play against it and beat it.
The only problem is that there are only a handful of ways to stop Rampardos.
1. If you donk them first.
2. If you are a fast Grass Deck.
3. You setup extremely fast and they fail.
4. You destroy their hand on the first turn.
Otherwise Rampy has the ability to come back. Donking a Rampardos deck is a difficult thing to do, mainly because of the multitude of basics that it plays. Most Grass decks can also be taken out in two hits which means that whoever is faster and has better recovery wins. I know for a fact that Rampardos has the best recovery around, mainly because a normal player will play 2-3 NM/TSD/Pokemon Rescue alongside 4 Fossil Excavator and however many Broken Time Space. With all of that getting another Rampardos every turn isn't very hard late game. If the Rampy deck gets an unfortunate start (how do I start with 6 energies if I only play 10??!?!) then it may not seem hard to win, in fact they may just be able to donk the Rampy deck. The only real consistant way to own Rampy is to destroy it's hand. Absol, Giratina, Exeggutor, TGM and others are all great for limiting a hand to nothing. If the opposing Rampy doesn't Top-Deck a Uxie then there shouldn't be any problems.
1. If you donk them first.
2. If you are a fast Grass Deck.
3. You setup extremely fast and they fail.
4. You destroy their hand on the first turn.
Otherwise Rampy has the ability to come back. Donking a Rampardos deck is a difficult thing to do, mainly because of the multitude of basics that it plays. Most Grass decks can also be taken out in two hits which means that whoever is faster and has better recovery wins. I know for a fact that Rampardos has the best recovery around, mainly because a normal player will play 2-3 NM/TSD/Pokemon Rescue alongside 4 Fossil Excavator and however many Broken Time Space. With all of that getting another Rampardos every turn isn't very hard late game. If the Rampy deck gets an unfortunate start (how do I start with 6 energies if I only play 10??!?!) then it may not seem hard to win, in fact they may just be able to donk the Rampy deck. The only real consistant way to own Rampy is to destroy it's hand. Absol, Giratina, Exeggutor, TGM and others are all great for limiting a hand to nothing. If the opposing Rampy doesn't Top-Deck a Uxie then there shouldn't be any problems.
DawnOfXatu said:
I agree wholeheartedly with this...Rampardos is really good at swarming and staying as a swarm. My Drapion deck can almost hold its own against a Rampardos deck (at least this guy's version), but I've lost both games that I've gone up against it.
Guys, what is better to use for States.
Dusknoir with Dialga G Lv.X tech
or
Blastoise/Delcatty/Claydol/Uxie?
Dusknoir with Dialga G Lv.X tech
or
Blastoise/Delcatty/Claydol/Uxie?
X_empoleon_X said:
Thank you!!!
That is exactly what I did when Kingdra was really popular. I mean really, I was able to pull the cards for a T-Tar deck and I won 2 out of the 4 CC I went to.
Now, I have the cards for a Rampardos deck and it is my best deck at the moment. I wish people would start to realalize this because I am really getting sick of everyone telling me that I am a cheep player for using Rampardos! I find it very ironic that NO ONE is complaining about Machamp or Kingdra or Mideyena or G decks or anything else, it is just Rampardos. If anyone here on Pokebeach objects to using the best deck that they have (unless it is a fun deck) then I don't know what to do with you.
Fax said:
I pulled all the cards needed to play Machamp, yet you didn't see me playing that...I considered it too cheap to even consider.
And...G decks really aren't that great. Sure, they have support. But they lack power and stamina. If they don't win early game, they're not going to win unless it's against a crap deck.
I object to Rampardos the same way I object to Machamp...just go with something different and actually have FUN. I play competitively, but I won't sink to such a level that I think I'm not having fun.
I really think States will be a lot more fun this time around because last season there were like 3 good decks, G&G, Magkiss, and Blissey. This season there are so many good decks in the format. Also, many rogue deck ideas are doing really well this season, which will make States more fun as you will be seeing many creative decks instead of playing 2 or 3 mirror matchups. The only thing I don't like about this current metagame is that if you want to win anything, your deck needs to be really fast or Machamp, Scizor, Kingdra, and Rampardos will overrun you, so whenever I make a deck, I always end up putting in lots of techs for speed. This is also why Claydol's popularity has recently decreased since Uxie allows for slower decks like Gigas and T-Tar to keep up with faster decks.
Yes, a great deck to beast Rampy is actually Scizor, since it is also very fast, hits Rampy for 100 damage for 2 energy, and also, if you play the MD Scyther, you can survive the donk attempt. Kingdra isn't too hard to counter since as long as you can survive for a while, Kingdra's power begins to decrease late game since 60 really isn't that much damage compared to if your hitting it for like 150 with T-Tar or something. Machamp is still pretty good since it is very good late game, though Unown G and Toxicroak G stop it cold.
DawnOfXatu said:
Yes, a great deck to beast Rampy is actually Scizor, since it is also very fast, hits Rampy for 100 damage for 2 energy, and also, if you play the MD Scyther, you can survive the donk attempt. Kingdra isn't too hard to counter since as long as you can survive for a while, Kingdra's power begins to decrease late game since 60 really isn't that much damage compared to if your hitting it for like 150 with T-Tar or something. Machamp is still pretty good since it is very good late game, though Unown G and Toxicroak G stop it cold.
Mightyena deals low amounts of damage and is the frailest out of all the donk decks, while Rampardos can deal it faster and swarm just as fast. Rampardos is clearly deals the most damage out of all of the donk decks, so that's the reason why people hate it so much. Personally, it's just another cheap deck like Machamp and Kingdra that's quick to make and easy to master. :F
dmaster out.
dmaster out.
G decks aren't great? What power do they need? They play off of weakness and have above average hp and attacks (for basics) and they have the speed and option thing going for them too. They have plenty of ways to win late game...but against most good G lists, teh game rarely gets to that point.The Fallen One said:
I'd rather sink to playing a deck that I don't like than sink to the bottom of the standings. ;0
Foxtrot said:
Above average for Basics, but for a lot of decks...it's a OHKO left and right. Most G pokemon suck (except for Toxicroak, Dialga, Palkia, and Houndoom, the rest can't stand alone), and most are techs for the good G pokemon. Once again, they may be fast, but they have major weakneses.
And...this saddens me. I entered the TCG to play for fun. I don't really care about doing truly good (though I usually end up doing good anyway), I care about actually enjoying the game. If you would rather do something you don't enjoy just to look/do good, then I feel really sorry for you. You're missing out on a lot of fun.
Oh, all I ever cared about was going undefeated.
I guess I can loosen up a little. But I'm still going super serious at States/Regional.
I guess I can loosen up a little. But I'm still going super serious at States/Regional.